2012 Election Thread

[VDB]

I'm curious about the "sensible Republicans" who sat out that you guys keep talking about. Surely you don't mean Jersey Shore cast member Chris Christie?

Wait, I thought he played Tony Soprano's brother-in-law?

Who would it take for you to say, "I could vote for this guy?" or at least "Well, if he wins he won't be that bad."

I'm thinking this is actually my current attitude toward Romney. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a total joke and his flip-floppery can't be ignored, but for the most part he strikes me as a shrewd enough politician (hello, Massachussetts Republican) to say and do what he thinks he needs to do in order to keep the constituency happy. As president, I imagine he'd be a fairly middle-of-the-road, status-quo type, finally free of the Republican primary circus so he can take a pragmatic, moderate approach to governing that I think would reflect his terrible, yearning, awkward desire to be liked.

[sunrisevt]

I'm curious about the "sensible Republicans" who sat out that you guys keep talking about. Surely you don't mean Jersey Shore cast member Chris Christie?

I mean "sensible" in that they have the good sense not to enter a race they're bound to lose--not that I find their politics sensible.

[sls.stormyrider]

I think there are a # of reasons why a moderate might not vote for Obama (if they're not disgusted by the GOP rhetoric, that is)

gas prices. yes, it's a global market, but people are probably still pissed

unemployment. the crisis actually started in 07, but many people conveniently forget that. besides, Obama is the guy on top right now, so he's "responsible"

leadership - yes, he has charisma, but he is percieved by some as "weak". not totally without reason

Obamacare - it doesn't matter that some people don't have health care coverage, the gov't can't make me buy insurance

the deficit - see above

if you say something loud enough and often enough, it becomes true.

sensible Repbublicans? none of them are electable because they aren't true conservatives. I doubt if someone read quotes from Reagan's speeches these days they would be considered conservative enough the way things have gone (see my Jeb Bush quote)

Scott Brown
Olympia Snow - unfortunately she's retiring
John Kasich (maybe, although he's under fire right now)
there are probably a few others that I can't think of now.

[rowjimmy]

are not happy with their perception of Obama's accomplishments.

The Fox News Effect taking hold...  You tell the people that he's a failure enough times, it doesn't matter how much water he turns to wine...

My neighbor who ignores all things political will tell you OB is a failure, but can't tell you why.  Not even one good example... 

Terry

It's not just that. It's been hashed over recently better than I can right now but (for just one example) I distinctly remember being told that detention center at Guantanamo Bay was going to be closed.

Obama's going to have to get out and work hard to highlight the things he has achieved out of all he said he'd try to do.


Also, people who blame Gas Prices on the president don't know wtf they're talking about. Gas companies and global markets drive those prices.

[Hicks]

are not happy with their perception of Obama's accomplishments.

The Fox News Effect taking hold...  You tell the people that he's a failure enough times, it doesn't matter how much water he turns to wine...

My neighbor who ignores all things political will tell you OB is a failure, but can't tell you why.  Not even one good example... 

Terry

It's not just that. It's been hashed over recently better than I can right now but (for just one example) I distinctly remember being told that detention center at Guantanamo Bay was going to be closed.

Obama's going to have to get out and work hard to highlight the things he has achieved out of all he said he'd try to do.


Also, people who blame Gas Prices on the president don't know wtf they're talking about. Gas companies and global markets drive those prices.

Unfortunately people who don't know wtf they are talking about not only decide elections, but frequently win them.

[sls.stormyrider]

are not happy with their perception of Obama's accomplishments.

The Fox News Effect taking hold...  You tell the people that he's a failure enough times, it doesn't matter how much water he turns to wine...

My neighbor who ignores all things political will tell you OB is a failure, but can't tell you why.  Not even one good example... 

Terry

It's not just that. It's been hashed over recently better than I can right now but (for just one example) I distinctly remember being told that detention center at Guantanamo Bay was going to be closed.

Obama's going to have to get out and work hard to highlight the things he has achieved out of all he said he'd try to do.

Also, people who blame Gas Prices on the president don't know wtf they're talking about. Gas companies and global markets drive those prices.

yes - I don't think he's done a very good job o that front, yet

[twatts]

are not happy with their perception of Obama's accomplishments.

The Fox News Effect taking hold...  You tell the people that he's a failure enough times, it doesn't matter how much water he turns to wine...

My neighbor who ignores all things political will tell you OB is a failure, but can't tell you why.  Not even one good example... 

Terry

It's not just that. It's been hashed over recently better than I can right now but (for just one example) I distinctly remember being told that detention center at Guantanamo Bay was going to be closed.

Obama's going to have to get out and work hard to highlight the things he has achieved out of all he said he'd try to do.


Also, people who blame Gas Prices on the president don't know wtf they're talking about. Gas companies and global markets drive those prices.

The GTMO promise was a mistake, OB should never have set a deadline...  THere were too far details to which he was not privy to make a bold statement like that...  Letting them out w/o Due Process would have given the GOP a "weak on crime" attack point, not closing on time gives them a "failure" attack point.  Anyways, IMO attacking OB for failing to close GTMO is also attacking the GOP's own position that it should remain open.  And if they do not want it open, why go through such efforts to impede the POTUS from closing it???  (military vs. civilian court debates, 2011 defense budget bill, etc.)

IMO, GTMO is neither a failure or a success.  It is what it is, though OB has done more to legitimize it and close it.  As a counter, I wonder what McCain would have done, given his recent rhetoric about going to war in the Middle East and/or his own experience as a POW...

Of course, none of this means anything to a Fauxnie...

Terry

[VDB]

For as much as Rick Santorum seems to get points for his "authenticity" (as in: he's authentically loony), and as much as he likes to hammer Romney for the latter's slipperiness, it sure seems like Santorum himself is pretty good at talking out of both sides of his mouth and looking like a fool from time to time.

Take this latest dustup, where he said that you might as well vote for Obama "instead of taking a risk with what may be the Etch A Sketch candidate of the future." (That being Romney.)

Today, Santorum is trying to back off that, denying that he actually said we should stay with Obama over Romeny. His M.O. when he gets caught in moments like this is to actually 1. deny that he said what he said and 2. blame the media or Mitt Romney for him getting caught saying it.

Not only does the guy have some pretty whacky views on the world, but as a candidate his undisciplined mouth gets him in trouble a lot. Romney's does, too, but Santorum isn't doing himself too many favors.

[Hicks]

I just have this weird feeling that Sanatorum is the more likely guy to beat Obama in the general, that's what makes him really scary to me. 

[nab]

are not happy with their perception of Obama's accomplishments.

The Fox News Effect taking hold...  You tell the people that he's a failure enough times, it doesn't matter how much water he turns to wine...

My neighbor who ignores all things political will tell you OB is a failure, but can't tell you why.  Not even one good example... 

Terry

It's not just that. It's been hashed over recently better than I can right now but (for just one example) I distinctly remember being told that detention center at Guantanamo Bay was going to be closed.

Obama's going to have to get out and work hard to highlight the things he has achieved out of all he said he'd try to do.


Also, people who blame Gas Prices on the president don't know wtf they're talking about. Gas companies and global markets drive those prices.

The GTMO promise was a mistake, OB should never have set a deadline...  THere were too far details to which he was not privy to make a bold statement like that... Letting them out w/o Due Process would have given the GOP a "weak on crime" attack point, not closing on time gives them a "failure" attack point.  Anyways, IMO attacking OB for failing to close GTMO is also attacking the GOP's own position that it should remain open.  And if they do not want it open, why go through such efforts to impede the POTUS from closing it???  (military vs. civilian court debates, 2011 defense budget bill, etc.)

IMO, GTMO is neither a failure or a success.  It is what it is, though OB has done more to legitimize it and close it.  As a counter, I wonder what McCain would have done, given his recent rhetoric about going to war in the Middle East and/or his own experience as a POW...

Of course, none of this means anything to a Fauxnie...

Terry

So our only criteria for giving Obama a draw on GTMO is that he averted a hypothetical political attack, might have done better than McCain might have hypothetically done, and has helped legitimize the base?


I understand relativism, but isn't it kind of a stretch to argue: "Draw=success because it neutralizes my opponents hypothetical argument", when we are dealing with real people, held without real due process, in real holding cells?   



I do agree with you, however, that Obama didn't have the knowledge he needed in initiating his promise to close  GTMO. 

[mbw]

so, obama is now embracing the term "obamacare."
whats up with that?

he has a FB page called "I Like Obamacare"   :?
seems like a bad move to me.
i dont know exactly why, i just dont like it.

[kellerb]

so, obama is now embracing the term "obamacare."
whats up with that?

he has a FB page called "I Like Obamacare"   :?
seems like a bad move to me.
i dont know exactly why, i just dont like it.

Well, they coined it with an "I HATE FUCKING OBAMA" sentiment built in, so it's natural to feel weird about it.  But if he can turn it around and own the phrase, he crushes. CRUSHES

[twatts]

So our only criteria for giving Obama a draw on GTMO is that he averted a hypothetical political attack,

In a sense, yes.  The US Gov't sometimes has to use evil means to achieve good ends.  Honestly, I have no issue with GTMO...

And I see OB moving forward with trying prisoners in court, transferring them out, etc.  I think we saw the previous admin just dumping people there to be forgotten. 

...might have done better than McCain might have hypothetically done, and has helped legitimize the base?

I'm not making any such hypothetical.  I actually brought that up as an honest curiosity - as a POW, he may have moved faster than OB.  And since the House is currently GOP led, they may have made his actions easier than they have for OB... 

ETA:  actually who know where the House would be today, if McCain had been elected...  Congress could be Dem Led and we could be exactly where we are today on the issue...  Anyone have a way to visit alternate realities???

I understand relativism...

I do agree with you, however, that Obama didn't have the knowledge he needed in initiating his promise to close  GTMO.

Isn't ALL politics "relative"?   :-P

ETA:  shouldn't our acknowledgement of OB's prior ignorance also tint our views of GITMO - we don't know the whole story... 

Terry

[runawayjimbo]

So our only criteria for giving Obama a draw on GTMO is that he averted a hypothetical political attack,

In a sense, yes.  The US Gov't sometimes has to use evil means to achieve good ends.  Honestly, I have no issue with GTMO...

I'm curious, if President Rick Santorum was sending US citizens to the gulag indefinitely (which, thanks to this president he would have the authority to do), could you still say the same thing? If not, then you're just being a homer.

And I see OB moving forward with trying prisoners in court, transferring them out, etc.  I think we saw the previous admin just dumping people there to be forgotten.

C'mon

...might have done better than McCain might have hypothetically done, and has helped legitimize the base?

I'm not making any such hypothetical.  I actually brought that up as an honest curiosity - as a POW, he may have moved faster than OB.  And since the House is currently GOP led, they may have made his actions easier than they have for OB...

I think he would have gone the other way with it, locking up more people and taunting the terrrrrrists.

I understand relativism...

I do agree with you, however, that Obama didn't have the knowledge he needed in initiating his promise to close  GTMO.

Isn't ALL politics "relative"?   :-P

ETA:  shouldn't our acknowledgement of OB's prior ignorance also tint our views of GITMO - we don't know the whole story... 

Terry

Whether or not he knew enough (or we do) is pretty irrelevant to me. His campaign promise wasn't specifically about closing Gitmo. Like much of his candidacy, it was symbolic of something bigger. In this case, it was about assuring the world that the US is a country of laws and that we will uphold those laws even/especially when it is difficult. I agree with your point that if the roles were reversed we'd be in the same spot. But to me, the only question is whether or not you believe that our system of laws and justice helps to differentiate us from countries that kidnap and torture people. Obama doesn't.

[twatts]

So our only criteria for giving Obama a draw on GTMO is that he averted a hypothetical political attack,

In a sense, yes.  The US Gov't sometimes has to use evil means to achieve good ends.  Honestly, I have no issue with GTMO...

I'm curious, if President Rick Santorum was sending US citizens to the gulag indefinitely (which, thanks to this president he would have the authority to do), could you still say the same thing? If not, then you're just being a homer.

In the case of Japanese Internment, no.  In the case of catching and holding the Unibomber before he ever became the Unibomber, yes.  Each case is weighs on its own terms in Court, or should be...  Extending POTUS power to do so w/o Congress is a Constitutional Issue...  Let the Court decide...

And I see OB moving forward with trying prisoners in court, transferring them out, etc.  I think we saw the previous admin just dumping people there to be forgotten.

C'mon

I'll concede that..  Due Process doesn't have to be instant...

...might have done better than McCain might have hypothetically done, and has helped legitimize the base?

I'm not making any such hypothetical.  I actually brought that up as an honest curiosity - as a POW, he may have moved faster than OB.  And since the House is currently GOP led, they may have made his actions easier than they have for OB...

I think he would have gone the other way with it, locking up more people and taunting the terrrrrrists.

LOL!  With Palin right behind him holding an M16!

I understand relativism...

I do agree with you, however, that Obama didn't have the knowledge he needed in initiating his promise to close  GTMO.

Isn't ALL politics "relative"?   :-P

ETA:  shouldn't our acknowledgement of OB's prior ignorance also tint our views of GITMO - we don't know the whole story... 

Terry

Whether or not he knew enough (or we do) is pretty irrelevant to me. His campaign promise wasn't specifically about closing Gitmo. Like much of his candidacy, it was symbolic of something bigger. In this case, it was about assuring the world that the US is a country of laws and that we will uphold those laws even/especially when it is difficult. I agree with your point that if the roles were reversed we'd be in the same spot. But to me, the only question is whether or not you believe that our system of laws and justice helps to differentiate us from countries that kidnap and torture people. Obama doesn't.

C'mon!  If you believe that the US Gov't hasn't always employed kidnap and torture to extend the interests of The People (however unspeakable), then you are naive, IMO...  No offense...

Terry