The Political Pot Thread

[nab]

with the legalization of weed, they will find someway to still make the arrests/money from the american public....either weed DUIs or some other way

I'm sure they will, but finding a new way to make a profit will require the establishment of new laws, including said bribes and public advertising that lead to the establishment of those laws.  This is expensive, much more expensive than lining the pockets you've already paid for. 

[emay]

with the legalization of weed, they will find someway to still make the arrests/money from the american public....either weed DUIs or some other way

I'm sure they will, but finding a new way to make a profit will require the establishment of new laws, including said bribes and public advertising that lead to the establishment of those laws.  This is expensive, much more expensive than lining the pockets you've already paid for.

yeah def.
I think the issue of legalization is reaching its tipping point.
Those companies know that too. So they are preparing for the storm, so to speak.
I feel like they are probably already researching new laws to make to allow legalization, but penalize americans still for smoking outside/driving and smoking/maybe smoking around kids? who knows what laws they are gonna make up but with legalization on the horizon, you know they got a team of lawyers/lawmakers ready to draft up some laws to be able to bust people still for weed. Who knows maybe they will just focus on harder drugs now  :roll:

"Legalization of marijuana, no matter how it begins, will come at the expense of our children and public safety," said an April report from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. "It will create dependency and treatment issues, and open the door to use of other drugs, impaired health, delinquent behavior and drugged drivers."

this is one section in the article that makes me kinda mad. its the ol gateway drug argument. maybe it will do that, but will it really create that many more dependency issues than the amount prescription painkillers and benzos have created? I doubt it. And DEA doesnt seem to be going after them.

[runawayjimbo]

The private prison industry isn't going to go down without a fight.  I hope that the Tea Party members mentioned stick to their more libertarian ideals in this case, but they're going to get some blowback from the party establishment.   

Justin Amash and Thomas Massie are the real deal; they definitely won't back away (Amash is already rumored to be getting primaried by a "moderate" backed by "business"). Rand too (in fact, Cory Booker has already said he looks forward to working with Rand on drug policy reform). But there are definitely some of those "tea party" dudes that will turn their backs on the first whiff of cash from the prison industry, and Steve Stockman is one of them.

Still, with public opinion changing so strongly, it's only a matter of time. Hopefully sooner.

[Mr. Natural]

Will we eventually have the Tea Party to thank for legalization ?!

[runawayjimbo]

Will over-taxation derail nascent legalization efforts?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/15/pot-s-black-market-backlash.html

Pot's Black Market Backlash
How prohibitionists and nanny staters are trying to keep marijuana illegal—or at least inconvenient.

In 2012, voters in Colorado and Washington passed full-on, no-hemming-or-hawing pot legalization by large majorities. Lawmakers in each state have spent the better part of the past year figuring out how to tax and regulate their nascent commercial pot industries, which will open for business in 2014 (until then, recreational pot is only supposed to be cultivated for personal use). The spirit behind the legalization efforts in both states was that marijuana should be treated in a "manner similar to alcohol."

Unfortunately, it's starting to look like both states are going to treat pot in a manner similar to alcohol during Prohibition. Not only are pot taxes likely to be sky high, various sorts of restrictions on pot shops may well make it easier to buy, sell, and use black-market marijuana rather than the legal variety. That's a bummer all around: States and municipalities will collect less revenue than expected, law-abiding residents will effectively be denied access to pot, and the crime, corruption, and violence that inevitably surrounds black markets will continue apace.

Washington's legalization initiative, I-502, mandated a 25 percent excise tax at each of three levels of transactions: sales between producers and processors; sales between processors and retailers; and sales between retailers and customers. That's all on top of a state sales tax of 8.75 percent. As Jacob Sullum argued at Forbes, the upshot of such a system is that weed could end up costing end users somewhere between $482 an ounce and $723 an ounce. The average price of high-quality pot at Seattle's medical marijuana dispensaries is currently about $250 an ounce (under I-502, medicinal pot won't be subject to taxes).

"The legal market is going to have a hard time competing with the illegal market, but a particularly hard time competing with untaxed, unregulated sort-of-legal market," Mark Kleiman, a UCLA professor and one of the main policy consultants for the Washington's government, told Sullum.

A similar situation is shaping up in Colorado, where voters just passed Proposition AA, which creates a 15 percent excise tax and a sales tax as high as 15 percent on pot sold in stores licensed by the state. On top of that, local municipalities can slap still more taxes on weed sales. Cities such as Boulder and Denver will start out with levies in the 3.5 percent range but can jack the rates as high as 10 percent and 15 percent.

While Colorado's legalization initiative made personal use and possession of pot legal statewide, it also let counties and municipalities to opt out of allowing pot sales. Over 100 towns and cities across Colorado have voted to ban outright or delay the opening of retail shops selling recreational pot. And it turns out that some of the counties that have banned the sale of recreational marijuana nonetheless want their share of sales taxes collected by the state. When asked whether such a position is hypocritical, a commissioner from Douglas County, which opted out of allowing pot sales, told the Denver CBS affiliate, "The answer is going to be then, why was my county not able to opt out of allowing the smoking of it at all?"

The upshot of such actions is predictable and depressing. Colorado lawmakers are banking on about $70 million a year (PDF) in taxes from pot and their Washington counterparts have projected new revenues of $1.9 billion over the first five years of legalization. There's just no way that's going to happen if a legal ounce of pot is double the price or more of back-alley weed. Even the most stoned pothead isn't that easy to scam.

If the experience of state cigarette taxes teaches us anything, it's that draconian levies allow black markets to flourish. After raising its per-pack tax by a dollar this year, Massachusetts is now grappling with somewhere between $74 million and $295 million in lost revenue. Most people are happy to pay taxes that they think are fair—and most people will avoid taxes they think are extortionary. Combine that with the widespread NIMBYism at work in Colorado and it's a recipe for clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.

The past several decades haven't been kind to the nation's drug warriors, especially when it comes to marijuana, the only illegal drug that is used on a monthly basis by more than 1 percent of Americans. In 1996, California passed a medical marijuana law and was soon followed by 19 other states and the District of Columbia. Crime—whether drug-related or not—didn't go up, kids didn't start toking up in droves, the heavens didn't fall.

Instead, a record number of people—58 percent, according to Gallup—have come to embrace pot legalization as a smart and proper idea and The Marijuana Policy Project identifies no fewer than 10 states it expects to legalize weed in the next couple of years.

It'll be an ironic buzzkill if it ends up that folks in places such as Maine, California, and Hawaii have an easier time firing up a state-sanctioned joint and enjoying the economic and social benefits of legalization long before the trailblazing residents of Colorado and Washington.

[VDB]

If and when marijuana prohibition is repealed at the federal level, you can bet Congress will want to jump on the excise-tax bandwagon.

[emay]

Taxes man, gotta love em.  :roll:

So how much would the Oz be before taxes? Just wondering.

My buddy in CO has been saying even medical prices have been creeping up in the past 6 months. 8ths at one dispensary went from 35 > 40 now they are at 45
gs of hash from 25 > 30 now at 35 and some at 40.
Not sure why the medical prices are going up since the taxes have nothing to do about medical.

[Mr. Natural]

Kind of a weird angle for Kleiman to take, since he's elsewhere calculated the costs of producing post-Prohibition herb as way, way lower than they are now. Previously, he's taken the stance that wholesale prices in a legal market would leave plenty of room for taxation. 

[runawayjimbo]

Uruguay becomes most pot-friendly country in the world, legalizing the entire chain of cultivation, distribution, and use. It will be interesting to see if other Latin American countries follow suit if Uruguay can do it effectively and reduce/eliminate the cartels' influence. Although I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around the implications for black market prices going forward: higher due to less supply or lower because of less demand? Either way, let's hope it helps the US come to its senses and reform the unconscionable and endless "war."

Also, I first read Uruguay's president as Joe Murica.

http://reut.rs/JcAfbY

Uruguay becomes first country to legalize marijuana trade

MONTEVIDEO (Reuters) - Uruguay became the first country to legalize the growing, sale and smoking of marijuana on Tuesday, a pioneering social experiment that will be closely watched by other nations debating drug liberalization.

A government-sponsored bill approved by 16-13 votes in the Senate provides for regulation of the cultivation, distribution and consumption of marijuana and is aimed at wresting the business from criminals in the small South American nation.

Backers of the law, some smoking joints, gathered near Congress holding green balloons, Jamaican flags in homage to Bob Marley and a sign saying: "Cultivating freedom, Uruguay grows."

Cannabis consumers will be able to buy a maximum of 40 grams (1.4 ounces) each month from licensed pharmacies as long as they are Uruguayan residents over the age of 18 and registered on a government database that will monitor their monthly purchases.

When the law is implemented in 120 days, Uruguayans will be able to grow six marijuana plants in their homes a year, or as much as 480 grams (about 17 ounces), and form smoking clubs of 15 to 45 members that can grow up to 99 plants per year.

Registered drug users should be able to start buying marijuana over the counter from licensed pharmacies in April.

"We begin a new experience in April. It involves a big cultural change that focuses on public health and the fight against drug trafficking," Uruguay's first lady, Senator Lucía Topolansky, told Reuters.

Uruguay's attempt to quell drug trafficking is being followed closely in Latin America where the legalization of some narcotics is being increasingly seen by regional leaders as a possible way to end the violence spawned by the cocaine trade.

Rich countries debating legalization of pot are also watching the bill, which philanthropist George Soros has supported as an "experiment" that could provide an alternative to the failed U.S.-led policies of the long "war on drugs."

The bill gives authorities 120 days to set up a drug control board that will regulate cultivation standards, fix the price and monitor consumption.

The use of marijuana is legal in Uruguay, a country of 3.3 million that is one of the most liberal in Latin America, but cultivation and sale of the drug are not.

Other countries have decriminalized marijuana possession and the Netherlands allows its sale in coffee shops, but Uruguay will be the first nation to legalize the whole chain from growing the plant to buying and selling its leaves.

Several countries such as Canada, the Netherlands and Israel have legal programs for growing medical cannabis but do not allow cultivation of marijuana for recreational use.

Last year, the U.S. states of Colorado and Washington passed ballot initiatives that legalize and regulate the recreational use of marijuana.

Uruguay's leftist president, Jose Mujica, defends his initiative as a bid to regulate and tax a market that already exists but is run by criminals.

"We've given this market as a gift to the drug traffickers and that is more destructive socially than the drug itself, because it rots the whole of society," the 78-year-old former guerrilla fighter told Argentine news agency Telam.

NOT ALL CONVINCED

Uruguay is one of the safest Latin American countries with little of the drug violence or other violence seen in countries such as Colombia and Mexico.

Yet one-third of Uruguay's prison inmates are serving time on charges related to narcotics trafficking that has turned Uruguay into a transit route for Paraguayan marijuana and Bolivian cocaine.

Even though it is set to clear the Senate, the legislation faces fierce opposition from conservatives and Mujica has yet to convince a majority of Uruguayans that it is a good idea.

According to a recent opinion poll by Equipos Consultores, 58 percent of Uruguayans oppose legalizing pot, although that is down from 68 percent in a previous survey in June.

Critics say legalization will not only increase consumption but open the door to the use of harder drugs than marijuana, which according to government statistics is used by 8 percent of Uruguayans on a regular basis.

"Competing with drug traffickers by offering marijuana at a lower price will just increase the market for a drug that has negative effects on public health," said Senator Alfredo Solari of the conservative Colorado Party.

If it works, the legislation is expected to fuel momentum for wider legalization of marijuana elsewhere, including the United States and in Europe. Decriminalization of all drug possession by Portugal in 2001 is held up as a success for reducing drug violence while not increasing drug use.

"This development in Uruguay is of historic significance," said Ethan Nadelmann, founder of the Drug Policy Alliance, a leading sponsor of drug policy reform partially funded by Soros through his Open Society Foundation.

"Uruguay is presenting an innovative model for cannabis that will better protect public health and public safety than does the prohibitionist approach," Nadelmann said.

[emay]

http://www.hightimes.com/read/marijuana-breathalyzer-close-reality

Marijuana Breathalyzer Close to Reality
BY MIKE ADAMS · THU OCT 24, 2013




RSS
"If You Are Going to Get High, You Better Not Drive," or some other public service slogan will surely be plastered on billboards all across America as soon as science figures out a way to stick it to the average citizen with the marijuana breathalyzer.

Ever since legalized recreational marijuana was made a reality last year by voters in Colorado and Washington, the powers that be have been brainstorming new ways in which to prosecute the legal marijuana user. Obviously, driving stoned is high on the list of no-nos.

In fact, a team of researchers recently published a document in the medical journal Clinical Chemistry that suggests a breath test -- similar to the testing procedures for alcohol intoxication -- may be the best way for law enforcement to analyze a motorist's THC level. Researchers believe that the breath method of testing could eventually phase out the controversial THC-blood test currently being used to prosecute people in courtrooms all over the country.

Researchers say that in a study group consisting of everyday stoners and weekend warrior-style occasional smokers, they were able to detect levels of THC, the principle psychoactive cannabinoid in marijuana that would be most likely to affect the way a person drives, by collecting breath samples.

What they found was that while every breath sample collected tested positive for THC almost immediately following the participant getting high, the only group to maintain a positive test after four hours were the everyday stoners. Interestingly, while 90% of the part-time smokers tested positive for THC within an hour of smoking, none of them tested positive after about 90 minutes.

This means that a marijuana breathalyzer manufactured under these principles would only be effective for somewhere between 30 minutes to two hours immediately following a person's participation in an old-fashioned toke and choke ritual.

So far, the outcome of the study holds some good news for the occasional smoker, but how would a law enforcement device that measures THC levels affect the die-hard smoker chiefing it up on the regular?

In its current form, the advent of the marijuana breathalyzer could prove extremely bad for the regular cannabis connoisseur because those people have the potential to test positive for THC after a week of abstinence -- sometimes longer depending on the body fat of the individual.

Technically, the user could be more to stone-sober than stoned and still be arrested for driving under the influence. Without a doubt, more research is needed in order to properly determine marijuana intoxication levels in this manner.

"Breath may offer an alternative matrix for testing for recent driving under the influence of cannabis, but is limited to a short detection window," researchers concluded in their study titled "Cannabinoids in Exhaled Breath following Controlled Administration of Smoked Cannabis."

[runawayjimbo]

Following in WA and CO's footsteps, NY state senator introduces bill to legalize and tax marijuana. It's unlikely to pass since the both the senate and Gov. Cuomo oppose full scale legalization, but the fact that the conversation is moving in this direction bodes well for the future.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/new-york-legalize-marijuana_n_4426553.html

New York Could Be Third State To Legalize Pot

First Washington and Colorado, and now -- maybe -- New York.

On Wednesday morning, New York state Sen. Liz Krueger, a Manhattan Democrat, unveiled a proposal to fully legalize and tax marijuana in the state.

At a press conference at City Hall in downtown Manhattan, Krueger denounced the prohibition of marijuana as a "policy that just hasn't worked."

"The illegal marijuana economy is alive and well," she said, "and our unjust laws are branding nonviolent New Yorkers, especially young adults, as criminals, creating a vicious cycle that ruins lives and needlessly wastes taxpayer dollars."

The bill represents the third effort in 2013 to topple legal barriers to pot use in New York state. Proposals to legalize marijuana for seriously ill patients and to fix a loophole in New York's decades-old marijuana decriminalization law both passed the state Assembly earlier this year, but the state Senate adjourned in June without taking action on either measure.

Advocates for pot legalization hope the new bill will fare better, but even they concede that the state's failure to adopt far more modest reforms doesn't bode well for the sweeping new proposal.

"It's unlikely that this bill is passing this year," said Gabriel Sayegh, the New York director of the Drug Policy Alliance, a group that advocates for the legalization of all drugs.

Still, he added, "it is an important contribution to the discussion that we should be having about our broken marijuana policies in New York."

About 600,000 people have been arrested for marijuana possession in the state since 1997, according to the Drug Policy Alliance. In New York City, more people are arrested for marijuana possession than for any other offense. As Krueger stressed at the press conference, the vast majority are black and Latino, despite evidence showing that marijuana use is more common among whites.

Gov. Andrew Cuomo has expressed ambivalence about legalizing marijuana even for medical use. But he led an effort last year to make possession of marijuana in public view a violation instead of a misdemeanor. Under a state law that has been on the books since 1977, possession of a small amount of marijuana is a minor offense on par with jaywalking. But if you you are caught holding or smoking pot in public view, you can be charged with a much more serious offense -- a misdemeanor punishable by up to three months in jail and a $500 fine.

Civil-liberties advocates say that many of the young black and Latino men who are charged with this offense bring the drug out into the open only after police tell them to empty their pockets. The outgoing New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly directed his department to put an end to the practice last year, but critics of pot prohibition say that broader reforms are needed.

"We're spending taxpayer money to ruin lives, disproportionately for those from communities of color, with no real public policy goal to be found in any of it," Krueger said.

[sophist]

Georgia - 2022.  Calling it. 

[Mr. Natural]

Each time a bill gets struck down, it just makes the next one more smartly written.

[Bobafett]

Georgia - 2022.  Calling it.

when Idaho and Mississippi legalize it, it's the beginning of revelations.  Or the start of the 3rd Book of Mormon.

[nab]

Georgia - 2022.  Calling it.

when Idaho and Mississippi legalize it, it's the beginning of revelations.  Or the start of the 3rd Book of Mormon.

It always astounds me, given how close I live to Idaho, how much of a different world it is when I visit the state.