2016 Presidential Democratic Primary Thread

[VDB]

Dunno if any of you cats listen to Dan Carlin (I'm looking at you, Jimbo), but I thought he was pretty much spot-on in his latest Common Sense podcast where he talked about the first Democrats debate. Carlin's certainly no lefty, but he properly (in my opinion) lauds Sanders primarily for his outsider status, his authenticity, and his relatively greater likelihood of shaking up a political and government establishment sorely in need of it. (In other words, many of the things that Sanders supporters also recognize, of course.) (By the way, I'd also agree with Carlin that the same positives can be found in Trump's candidacy, and you don't even have to ultimately wish for a President Trump to feel that way. Basically it seems we're at a point where radical change -- specifically to the way business is done in Washington, and to the players doing it -- possesses virtues unto itself, and these little incremental swings of the pendulum and tugs-of-war really aren't going to get us anything except the same old same old.)

[sls.stormyrider]

I have a problem with that poll. First, if you read the fine print, most dems and independents would lable themselves as neither. Second, it depends on how they were asked and when they were asked (I bet if you asked someone after a Bernie ralley the numbers may be different than before they heard of Bernie.

Finally, I live in the Peoples Republic of Massachussetts, where there is no shortage of liberals and democrats. I don't remember meeting anyone espousing socialism. I don't think that this state is an experiment in socialism. Except, of course, our healthcare system, that was passed when a famous socialist named Mitt was governor
(btw, among the states that ACA has been most successful are KY and OH - hardly bastions of liberalism. You just can't call it ACA or Obamacare)

For myself, history has taught me that capitalism works in general, but lessez faire capitalism leads to disaster, and unfortunately we have been moving that way since 1980

[Undermind]

[ytowndan]

My biggest issue with polls about socialism is that they're ultimately useless until we can all agree on what it means.  Even people directly involved in democratic socialist movements have radically different definitions, with the only constant being democracy.  Some want public ownership right away, some argue for a gradual transition from the welfare state to public ownership, and others say that a perfected welfare state can make a mixed capitalist system work.  (Not to mention the Fox News definition, which basically means you're to the left of Bob Dole.)

Bernie might be able to take ownership of the definition over time.  I'm glad to see he's giving a big speech on the topic, because it seems to be the first question asked in every interview. 

But, until something changes, it's hard to really understand what people are agreeing/disagreeing with in these polls. 

[VDB]

Dan, what you said there really gets to the heart of it for me. The fixation over labels is so obnoxious and maddening because it's basically how people allow themselves to not pay attention to policy specifics or see any nuance in anything. Instead you can just go "I hate liberals" and wipe your hands and be done with it.

[rowjimmy]

Chafee is out.

Yeah, I don't care either.

[VDB]

I think you're being a little rough.

[rowjimmy]

I think you're being a little rough.

Am I?
Chafee was a non-entity in my personal perspective of the campaign. His departure changes nothing.

[runawayjimbo]

Dunno if any of you cats listen to Dan Carlin (I'm looking at you, Jimbo)...

I think I heard him on Joe Rogan's podcast a couple of times, but I've never listened to his. Sounds like a pretty sensible dude, tho.

For myself, history has taught me that capitalism works in general, but lessez faire capitalism leads to disaster, and unfortunately we have been moving that way since 1980

All due respect, doc, but that's not what we have. We have a system of insane regulatory capture where the interests of large, powerful businesses are protected by the gov't. We have a system where a select few profit from gains and where the taxpayers shoulder the burden of the losses. This is not capitalism but cronyism. It is socialism for business. Well, businesses that are big enough to matter, anyway. The small business entrepreneur need not apply.

My biggest issue with polls about socialism is that they're ultimately useless until we can all agree on what it means.  Even people directly involved in democratic socialist movements have radically different definitions, with the only constant being democracy.  Some want public ownership right away, some argue for a gradual transition from the welfare state to public ownership, and others say that a perfected welfare state can make a mixed capitalist system work.  (Not to mention the Fox News definition, which basically means you're to the left of Bob Dole.)

Bernie might be able to take ownership of the definition over time.  I'm glad to see he's giving a big speech on the topic, because it seems to be the first question asked in every interview. 

But, until something changes, it's hard to really understand what people are agreeing/disagreeing with in these polls. 

Agree completely. If people understood socialism, they would be adamantly against it.
:wink:

[VDB]

I think you're being a little rough.

Am I?
Chafee was a non-entity in my personal perspective of the campaign. His departure changes nothing.

That was a Chafee line.

[runawayjimbo]

I think you're being a little rough.

Am I?
Chafee was a non-entity in my personal perspective of the campaign. His departure changes nothing.

That was a Chafee line.

Haha, I thought it was a chafing joke.

[Hicks]

I think you're being a little rough.

Am I?
Chafee was a non-entity in my personal perspective of the campaign. His departure changes nothing.

That was a Chafee line.

Haha, I thought it was a chafing joke.

Metric system, lol.

[rowjimmy]

I think you're being a little rough.

Am I?
Chafee was a non-entity in my personal perspective of the campaign. His departure changes nothing.

That was a Chafee line.

Basically proves my point, doesn't it?

[VDB]

I think you're being a little rough.

Am I?
Chafee was a non-entity in my personal perspective of the campaign. His departure changes nothing.

That was a Chafee line.

Haha, I thought it was a chafing joke.

No, that would be #FeelTheChafe. Which we now don't get do use anymore, the jerk.

[runawayjimbo]

I think you're being a little rough.

Am I?
Chafee was a non-entity in my personal perspective of the campaign. His departure changes nothing.

That was a Chafee line.

Haha, I thought it was a chafing joke.

Metric system, lol.

Hey, that was his one good idea!